TPUG - Toronto PET Users Group/TPUG Users Group CD/TPUG Users Group CD.iso/CRS/crs47.d81/cmdaccel.txt

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<GEOS-TIM> Welcome to the CMD News Release night!!!

           The news release will be followed by a question and answer segment.
           Doug Cotton from CMD is our featured speaker for tonight.

           Hi Doug

<Doug Cotton> Hi! ;)

<GEOS-TIM> We know you are have some great news for us C= users tonight. So let
           us get right to it.

<Doug Cotton> Thanks for coming all... and yes, I do. ;)

              CMD is pleased to announce that we will soon be releasing a new
              hardware product. This product is initially aimed at the C64 or
              C128 in 64 mode. The product will be released early next year,
              with a target of February 1996.

              The product is actually two products in a single product line.
              The two models in this new line are named the Super64/10 and
              Super64/20, and are 10 and 20 MHz accelerators, respectively.

              Prices are expected to be approximately $150 for the /10 model,
              and $200 for the /20 model.

              There are a lot of features and such, but I suspect we can cover
              those as we get into the Q & A. ;)

<GEOS-TIM> We will be going into a little 3 minute "whooping time" followed by
           a listen period

<C128.LOU> 20 Meg!!!! Yeeeeehaw!!!!!

<GEOS-TIM> That is great news, Doug

<Lorax> How did you get around the VIC chip limitations?

<128PowerUser> This is great Doug, but not of much use for 128 natve mode                      users.

<Nathan B from NC> A20MHz 64? CCOOLL!!!

<Chance> Wow!!!!!!!  20 Mhz!   Think of GEOS! Think of...WOW!

<Bud> will we have to buy a whole new c64? or is just a chip?

<GEOS-TIM> Okay, first question-

<G.NOGGLE> hi doug, 2 parts same question,comptability with Ramlink,Swiftlink?

<Doug Cotton> Absolutely yes on both, Greg. ;) Let me explain that a little...

              The Super64CPU's (that's what we'll refer to them as) will have a
              pass-through port, much as RAMLink does now. They will also be
              RAMLink "aware" devices, in that the RAMLink Kernal will also be
              in them, so that RAMLink can be attached and controlled by them
              just as if it were doing things all by itself.

              Other cartridges can also work, But this will be limited to
              things like I/O cartridges, as cartridges which try to do memory
              mapping of the computer and such will likely fail.

              So SwiftLink, yes, but things like Super Snapshot... sorry, no.

<JetFlight> I guess you will answer it but why not 128 in 128 mode. Cant
            acceleration help  us out also?

<Doug Cotton> Sure it can, but the reason for 64 mode first is simple, we can
              have it ready sooner.

              The 128 mode will take some extra stuff as well as extra time to
              develop.

<JetFlight> What extra stuff? How long till 128?

<Doug Cotton> We haven't made any definate decision to go ahead with a 128 mode
              model as yet, but it is under consideration, and will likely be
              approved to be done after we release the 64 mode models.

              As for the extra stuff, It takes extra logic to deal with the MMU
              and other unusual functions of the 128. This means more hardware
              inside, and extra time to figure out just how to make it all work
              correctly. That adds cost, which we felt should NOT be passed on
              to 64 users.

<Keith> Hi Doug- how would you rate a 20MHz 64 vs an IBM of what class/MHz?

<Doug Cotton> Okay... we're using the W65C816S processor, which is rated at 10
              MIPS when running at 20 MHz. A 386SX processor running at 25 MHz
              comes out around 8 MIPS, so a little better than a 25 MHz 386 in
              raw processing power.

              Now, that the raw numbers. but there are some other things to
              consider.

              There's an enormous amount of bloat in "Intel" machine programs,
              and they simply aren't written as efficiently as 6502 code. My
              bet is that our programs will be able to run as fast as most any
              486 machine normally sees in applications.

<Keith> Yah, I'm familiar with numbers comparisons, my Amiga's Motorola vs
        Intel's hogs.  Thanks.

<GEOS-TIM> Lou Schonder, the famous Wednesday night host in the Commodore RT
           has a question

<C128.LOU> Doug, would one have access to the extended commands of the new CPU,
           and Can it work on an SX-64? (Can it POSSIBLY fit inside an SX-64?)

<Doug Cotton> As for the commands, yes. The 65816 commands are all available in
              both native and emulation modes (though many have less use in 8-
              bit vs. 16-bit mode).

              As for the SX, it should be able to work, but much will depend on
              the strength of signals and noise on the expansion port of the
              individual computer n this case.

              I'll have to check more on that with Mark. ;)

              Let me verbalize a moment before the next question...

              If a 128 version is released at a later point, we will offer an
              upgrade policy. I've been told this is official.

              There will also be some kind of upgrade policy for the /10 to /20
              model.

<JetFlight> What will happen to the SIMMs we have in our RAMLINKS now when we
            put a 64 accelerator ahead of it? Can we still use the programs
            installed in the RL? :)

<Doug Cotton> Leave those SIMMs right there! Yes, as I mentioned earlier,
              RAMLink can be attached to the pass-through port of the
              Super64CPU's, so it can still be used in exactly the same way as
              you use it now.

<GEOS-TIM> Greg Noggle, our famous Sunday night Commodore RT  host has a
           question.

<G.NOGGLE> I assume there is some extra memory being added in this addon,if so
           how much and can we access it,and what is the projected cost?

<Doug Cotton> Ah. Let me get into some of the specs of the system. The on-board
              RAM will consist of 64K of Fast Static RAM (25 ns, I believe).
              This is as fast as they make it, at this point, and it has to be
              this fast just to keep up with the processor.

              Now, I know that some of you are saying, "Then why do 66 MHz PC's
              use 60 ns RAM?"

              Here's the scoop - The processors used in Intel and other "fast"
              PC's have methods of pre-fetching data (long before it's actually
              needed), so they get away with using slower RAM.

              We don't have this luxury, so we've got to use the fastest RAM
              available - leading edge stuff. But this means we'll get better
              overall performance (no wait states on the RAM).

              The down-side is that this kind of RAM is very expensive, say
              somewhere around $150 a MB, so don't look for us to put extra
              FAST RAM in the unit. It would just raise the cost.

              However...

              I've been hearing talk about something called a "Rocket-Socket"
              to be incorporated into the design of the Super64CPU's. A little
              bird told me that this little jewel would probably let us add as
              much RAM as we desire, up to 16 MB (or perhaps more if a virtual
              memory scheme were used). Now, I would expect that DRAM would be
              used in this case, though, with some wait-states to keep the cost
              down.

<Buff Phoon> Will there be a need for something to speed up our external
             devices (drives) to maximize the Super64 usage?

<Doug Cotton> Best thing I could suggest is that you use the fatest
              peripherals you can afford. Naturally RAMLink and the HD top that
              list. And as long as we're talking about peripherals, I should
              also mention that the Super64CPU's are DMA aware, and are
              therefore compatible with Commodore REU's (in addition to being
              RAMLink and GEORAM compatible)

<Buff Phoon> price?

<Doug Cotton> Again, the projected prices at this time are $149.95 for the /10
              and $199.95 for the /20 model.

<GEOS-TIM> geoHarold, another famous Commodore RT host on Friday nights, has a
           question.
<geoHarold> A couple of questions. What about compatibility with devices that
            go into the modem port, such as the Handyscanner 64, CBM/Aprotek
            modems and RS-232 adaptors?

<Doug Cotton> That will depend entirely on their software Harold, as it is in
              control of those devices. There's no hardware conflict. I'd
              expect programs that do "software RS-232" not to work in
              accelerated modes, though.

<geoHarold> Have you experienced problems in getting software to work with the
            Super64? Such as GEOS, word processing, spreadsheets and games?
            And utilities?

<Doug Cotton> Software compatibility will come down to an item by item
              determination. Games will be nearly useless in accelerated modes
              though, can you imagine Pac-man at 20 MHz? Bet you couldn't say
              "game over" before it was.

              But most productivity software, and especially GEOS, will
              benefit. Utilities, that covers a broad area, and I'd have to
              know specifically which you're concerned about to answer that.

<geoHarold> Is there a separate power source for the Super64?

<Doug Cotton> If I understand correctly, there will be an option for a power
              supply. It won't be necessary for using the unit alone or with a
              RAMLink. But you'd probably want one if you were using just an
              REU with the Super64CPU.

<GEOS-TIM> Chance, one who has helped out in the RT many  times, has a
           question.

<Chance> Are there any features of this new accelerator available for the
         programmer programming specifically for it?  Any new tricks, or does
         it completely mimic the 6502/10?

<Doug Cotton> There are indeed a lot of tricks. The 65816 can mimic the 6502
              in emulation mode. But in it's native mode, most of the regiters
              expand to 16 bits, and the address bus goes from 16 to 24 bits.
              In both modes, you'll have 24 addressing modes (as opposed to the
              13 we have now) and a whole lot of additional opcodes.

              As for programming info, We'll be offering some developer
              packages, and we'll probably be extending one or more of the
              currently available Assembler packages to deal with all the
              extra's. ;)

<GEOS-TIM> Snog Pitch, our famous Saturday night host has a question.

<Snogpitch> I have a question with the Ramlink passthru.  Will that be straight
            thru, or an elbow type of connection?

<Doug Cotton> Straight through. Also, we expect the Super64CPU module itself to
              be very small, at least in length, probably no more than 3 to 4
              inches, maybe less.

<GEOS-TIM> Keith Smith, editor of the Tonawanda Commodore User Groups
           Newsletter has a question.

<Keith> Okay, Doug, just a couple of quickies:
        First- is there a bypass method/switch?

<Doug Cotton> Yes. Let me cover the switches. There are two three-position
              switches in the current design.

              One is a speed switch, with SLOW, FAST, and PROGRAM modes. The
              SLOW and FAST modes FORCE the unit into 1 MHz or 10/20 MHz modes,
              respectively.

              The PROGRAM mode defaults to FAST mode, but allows software
              control, using the same method as employed in the Schnedler Turbo
              Master CPU (so programs modified for that accelerator will work
              with our unit).

              The second switch also has three positions.
              OFF/NORMAL/JIFFYDOS. OFF disables the unit entirely, and the
              other two could be viewed as being identical to the JiffyDOS
              switch we put on 64/128's equipped with JiffyDOS.

<Keith> Second, is CMD basing the probability of a 128 version on the sales of
        the 64 version?  If so, I have zero use for a 64-only version.

<Doug Cotton> Actually, we'll base the probability of a 128 version on response
              received from users about that product. So, those interested in a
              128 version should write directly to CMD and voice their opinion
              on that matter -- don't call, WRITE. ;)

<Keith> And lastly, unrelated to the SuperCPU, and my apologies if this has
        been asked to death, but has CMD been in touch with ESCOM re: The
        aquisition/re-production of 64s/128s/65s?  ;)

<Doug Cotton> As for talking with ESCOM, we have done that, but we have not
              talked to them about aquiring any rights to produce the
              64/128/65. We have no interest in doing that at this particular
              point in time, but should it be necessary, they're open to
              discussion of the matter.

<GEOS-TIM> Maurine, editor of the Muskegaon User groups newsletter

<Maurine> My question on switches has been nicely answered, but I would like to
          know what the Super64CPU looks like physically. It's not clear if it
          goes inside or out or both, is detachable, etc.?

<Doug Cotton> Good question. Right now it looks like a bunch of chips on a
              board! But the final unit will be in a case, and yes, will be
              fully external.

              Mark also tells me that there will be no need to open your
              computer at all to attach it.

<Maurine> Great!  One more question, Some people in my users group were
          wondering, does CMD have any emulator production plans?

<Doug Cotton> None. Our market has always been the 64 and 128, and we don't
              expect that to change any time soon. We can sell an emulator, and
              it may very well be our last sale to that person. We'd rather
              sell to those staying in the market.

<Lorax> How did you get around the 1mHz limitation of the VIC chip?

<Doug Cotton> Didn't, and you can't. Even Commodore had to slow down to 1 MHz
              for VIC access in the 128. So here's how it works, Just like the
              128. We do something called clock-stretching, that allows us to
              sync with the 1 MHz clock when data has to be copied down into
              I/O, or screen memory.

<Lorax> So will all raster interrupts and other tricks be out of the question?

<Doug Cotton> No, not out of the question. But they'll have to be written
              specifically for the accelerator if that's the intended purpose.
              Many of those routines base things on timing of a cycle in the
              computer, and that's out. Can't have things working that way.

<GEOS-TIM> This was the final question.  Direct any other questions to the
           Bullitin Board in the CMD Category. I want to thank Doug for a very
           informative evening.

<GEOS-TIM> Great job, Doug

<Doug Cotton> Thanks Tim, and thanks all for being here for the announcement.
              ;)